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The Gotwind Forum • View topic - Just a Progress Report

Just a Progress Report

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Fish4Fun

Junior

Posts: 273

Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:27 pm

Location: NC USA

Post Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:26 am

Just a Progress Report

The wind turbine forum seems very quiet, and I am nearing completion of phase one of my VAWT project, so I thought I would post an update.

The plan: Build a VAWT to assist in pumping water from a well to a cistern. I live in a coastal area famous for "bad well water", but actually my well provides me with fabulous water, just not a lot of it (~3.5gal/min). I could easily drill a new, larger well; however, the chances of getting good quality water from it are slim. Other neighbors have deeper wells with substantially more volume; however, the quality is not great (a mixture of sulfur, Iron and salt). There are filtration systems to deal with the various water quality problems, but they all have problems. In the end, the "best water" comes from just below the "hard-pan" (~40ft down) in a layer of "coquina". The "coquina" effectively filters impurities; however, water moves slowly through it. A bit further down and water is more plentiful but has considerably more iron and sulfur. Even further down water becomes more and more plentiful; however, these aquifers are high in sodium. So, the answer for me is not a bigger or deeper well, but rather attempting to get more water from my existing well. The best way to do this is remove a large volume of water over a longer period of time and store it for later use. And this is phase one.

Phase One: This phase involves the infrastructure. I purchased a 550 gallon cistern and have constructed a two-story building to house the cistern, the high-pressure pump and other associate apparatus. The building is designed to be the base for my VAWT, giving it an initial height of 16ft. The base for the VAWT will extend from the roof of the building much like a chimney. The "chimney" will extend the VAWT to a base height of 35ft. (The building itself is 8ft x 8ft x 16ft.) The construction of the building includes a steel reinforced concrete footing with two courses of concrete filled block then 2x6 wall construction bolted to the foundation. I designed the roofing system (and the entire building) to support the stresses of the VAWT and the weight of the 550 gallon water tank.

The primary goal of phase one is to build the infrastructure for the remainder of the project while maintaining an uninterrupted domestic water supply (wife really is very intolerant about the absence of water). At this point the structural aspects of the building are complete, and most of the primary plumbing is complete. The existing well system is still intact. In this system there are three redundancies: 1) The cistern is filled once a defined amount of water has been drawn from it by the existing well system. 2) Should the cistern be drained past a certain point, or the high-pressure//high-volume pump fail, the existing well system will provide pressurized water to the system 3) Provisions for filling the cistern using a VAWT powered pump are in place.

Looking forward to phase two: Phase two is to build the VAWT and Pump and incorporate it into the existing system. The initial design of the VAWT will be an Ed Lenz variant. Three 2-meter "wings" on a 1.5 meter radius. The pump will be a direct-drive double-acting piston type. Sizing the pump bore and stroke is a subject I am worrying over. Obviously I am looking for high-torque // low-RPM, but I have serious reservations about "starting torque" preventing the VAWT from ever starting. Everything in me wants to gear the VAWT output shaft down to ensure a smooth start-up, but I really want to avoid this complication. In the end, until I build the wings and test them there is simply nothing but hopes and conjectures. Anyway, I thought I would report. Sadly I am not reporting the completion of the VAWT, that part of the project is still in the future.


Fish
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microgreen

Junior

Posts: 102

Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:43 pm

Location: UK, Essex

Post Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:04 am

Re: Just a Progress Report

Hi Fish,

That sounds like a big project you have going on there. Thanks for the update, I have a soft spot for VAWTs so I for one am very interested in your project. Do you have any photos of the build?

John
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new01xkrowner

Posts: 43

Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:28 am

Post Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:12 pm

Re: Just a Progress Report

Hi ya Fish! Sounds like a big project, and an expensive one! What about posting a cost/benefit analysis of your project versus utilizing bottled water provided by a company? I am assuming the problem is mostly with the taste and possibly the smell of your well water? Has it been tested for such things as molybdenum? We have a high level of that, and therefore are using Culligan water to drink and cook with. Showers and laundry are ok with well water... Also, looked into a filtration system? Reverse osmosis, or a cloriniated type system? Just wondering... And what are your plans with the unreliability of the wind? In any case I wish you the best of luck! Terry
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Fish4Fun

Junior

Posts: 273

Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:27 pm

Location: NC USA

Post Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:17 pm

Re: Just a Progress Report

John, Terry,

Thanks for the response! Yes, the project is expensive, lol. The objective is to increase the availability of our existing well water (which is quite excellent). To that end, our existing well now fills a 550gal cistern. A secondary pump moves the water from the cistern to the house. The previously existing well/pump have an output of ~3.5gpm @ ~25psi. The pump fed by the cistern can pump up to 45gpm @ 120psi, though I have cut in set @ 45psi & cut out @ 70psi. When the high pressure pump cuts in it feeds 2 50gal "bladder tanks" (actual volume ~18gal each). Even with a heavy load, the high pressure pump fills both bladder tanks and cuts out in < 1 minute. The well pump cuts in after ~ 50 gallons is removed from the cistern, and it runs for quite a while (15 minutes minimum). This portion of the project is complete except for insulation, roofing & vinyl siding.

The next phase is to augment the grid driven well pump with a VAWT pump. I would not even consider relying completely on the VAWT to keep the cistern full!

Cost/Benefit analysis? LOL the main cost of the system is in phase one, phase two, the VAWT, will be a small financial consideration in the overall project. Assuming it can pump 50% of the water we use (~200 gal to 800 gal per day) it would replace a 3/4hp pump for 30min to 2hrs or .75kWh to 3kWh per day. Assuming the VAWT portion of the project has a budget of $1000, and it actually averages 3kWh/Day this would put the "break even point" @ about 8 years; ~32 years if it averages .75kWh. The $1000 budget depends a lot on where you start counting in the VAWT budget, and how many renditions it takes to make the VAWT & Pump function efficiently. For instance, building the pump house to ultimately be the VAWT base added considerable material costs to the project, but was ultimately cheaper than building a free standing base. An 18in wide x 18in deep steel reinforced concrete footing would not have been requisite if I did not plan to have a 3m^2 VAWT 35ft in the air! But, a footing still would have been required for the 4500lb cistern. Using 2x6 wall construction and 2x10 joists for the lower portion of the building was required by the cistern; however, using 2x6 wall construction on the upper portion and 2x10 roof rafters on 16in centers was completely for the VAWT. If we limit the cost of the VAWT to the wings, struts, bearings, mast and pump, then the VAWT budget is much smaller (~$500) and the "break even point" is much sooner.

At the end of the day, my VAWT will be, like most things "green", as much a symbol as anything. It will represent some small portion of my overall energy consumption. I have no illusions about going "off grid", I simply want to make an effort to use renewable resources for some portion of my needs. The biggest actual savings I anticipate from RE will come when I finally convert my hot tub to solar heating. But there again, it depends on where you start counting. Seasonally my hot tub gobbles up as much as 30kWh per day, when that project is completed it should consume < 1kWh/day regardless of the season.

I will take some pictures of my Pump House & the various systems this afternoon is I can get my camera batteries charged.

Fish
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ghurd

Senior

Posts: 674

Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:27 pm

Location: USA

Post Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:37 pm

Re: Just a Progress Report

Green/Statement/Fun/Hobby is hard to quantify.
"a cost/benefit analysis of your project versus" movie tickets for 2, 2 large Cokes, a pound (1/2kg) box of jujyfruits, and one of those giant buckets of popcorn?

I still think it would be cheaper, easier, simpler, smaller, with a HAWT or PV system driving a variable speed DC motor connected to some kind of pump, almost direct drive (not quite direct).
It comes down to different tastes in 'movies'.

Pictures are good.
The pump itself has me fascinated.
G-
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Fish4Fun

Junior

Posts: 273

Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:27 pm

Location: NC USA

Post Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:50 am

Re: Just a Progress Report

ghurd wrote:Green/Statement/Fun/Hobby is hard to quantify.
"a cost/benefit analysis of your project versus" movie tickets for 2, 2 large Cokes, a pound (1/2kg) box of jujyfruits, and one of those giant buckets of popcorn?

I still think it would be cheaper, easier, simpler, smaller, with a HAWT or PV system driving a variable speed DC motor connected to some kind of pump, almost direct drive (not quite direct).
It comes down to different tastes in 'movies'.

Pictures are good.
The pump itself has me fascinated.
G-


LMFAO @ ghurd!

Ok, I finally got my camera battery charged, so I will try to take some pictures tomorrow. You aren't going to be impressed: no siding or roof on the building, doors are only rough cut, no wind turbine yet, LOL, but there will be pictures! Project budget: $5000. Project objective: Provide 15gpm or more of delicious, cleansing water to my house (and my next door neighbor's house). Secondary considerations: use wind power to move 50% of said water from a 45ft well to a cistern. "The Pump" you are curious about is still under consideration, but it will be a piston type between 2in diameter and 4in diameter with a 6in to 12in stroke powered by a VAWT and likely a 5:1 to 10:1 worm-gear reducer. My "average" wind-speed is 4.6m/s with hurricane force 3 winds 100% probable. Design consideration is to achieve "some input" @ 5m/s with 75m/s survivability. We get "afternoon thermals" of ~ 10m/s almost every day, so achieving maximum efficiency at this wind-speed is a major consideration. Use of the gear reducer will improve "cut-in", designing for high-torque, low RPM will help ensure high-wind survivability. (TSR = 1, radius = 1m, wind speed = 150mph, RPM = 350) . It is important to note that the design is such that "no-load" RPM even under hurricane conditions, remains "safe". Pumping water is fundamentally different than attempting to produce electricity, RPM is NOT a measure of efficiency in the former case.

When I actually get the VAWT built, I will let it run "un-loaded" with data acquisition hardware/firmware for some period of time and then make decisions about bore/stroke/gear-reduction. Could I achieve "better results" with an HAWT? Maybe. But honestly, I am attempting to move ~100gal to 400gal of water per day a net of 60 vertical feet; this equates to 25Wh to 100Wh (of actual work, the existing well pump consumes between 750Wh and 3kWh to achieve this!) per day. I am not trying to power my house or save the world. My "dump load" waters the lawn. I think my expectations are reasonable. The system is designed for survivability first, average performance second. The existing system works 100% w/o RE input, so assuming that RE will not degrade the performance of the system is reasonable. My efforts are to make it "slow" and "reliable". I have provisions, after data acquisition. to port more dependence to RE; a 550gal cistern allows a fair amount of "wiggle room", but in the short-term, the primary system is designed to ensure 100% of demand is met with or without RE.

Anyway, I look very forward to watching my VAWT turn slowly in the wind; hopefully it will pump some water :-)

Fish
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new01xkrowner

Posts: 43

Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:28 am

Post Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:57 am

Re: Just a Progress Report

That is way cool Fish! My windmill is pretty much just for my sense of self satisfaction at a cost of many hundred dollars. But I just get a kick out of watching it work!
I built a 14 x 14 addition to my garage, gable roofed tied into existing hip roof garage last year... concrete floor, 8" deep not 18" deep.... My total cost was nearly $5000. So for what you are doing for a similar price is quite remarkable... I also sided and shingled myself to save $$$... Best of luck with your endeavour!!! Terry
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ghurd

Senior

Posts: 674

Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:27 pm

Location: USA

Post Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:34 pm

Re: Just a Progress Report

At Terry. I meant no offense.
"My windmill is pretty much just for my sense of self satisfaction at a cost of many hundred dollars. But I just get a kick out of watching it work!"
Me too.

Fish-
VAWT type known yet?

Have you considered something like 3 x 60 degree out piston pumps?
3-ph mechanical concept.
Seems like a single conventional piston pump would 'cog'.
Day Jaw View?
G-
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Fish4Fun

Junior

Posts: 273

Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:27 pm

Location: NC USA

Post Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:33 am

Re: Just a Progress Report

ghurd wrote:At Terry. I meant no offense.
"My windmill is pretty much just for my sense of self satisfaction at a cost of many hundred dollars. But I just get a kick out of watching it work!"
Me too.

Fish-
VAWT type known yet?

Have you considered something like 3 x 60 degree out piston pumps?
3-ph mechanical concept.
Seems like a single conventional piston pump would 'cog'.
Day Jaw View?
G-


Fish4Fun wrote:Looking forward to phase two: Phase two is to build the VAWT and Pump and incorporate it into the existing system. The initial design of the VAWT will be an Ed Lenz variant. Three 2-meter "wings" on a 1.5 meter radius. The pump will be a direct-drive double-acting piston type. Sizing the pump bore and stroke is a subject I am worrying over. Obviously I am looking for high-torque // low-RPM, but I have serious reservations about "starting torque" preventing the VAWT from ever starting. Everything in me wants to gear the VAWT output shaft down to ensure a smooth start-up, but I really want to avoid this complication. In the end, until I build the wings and test them there is simply nothing but hopes and conjectures. Anyway, I thought I would report. Sadly I am not reporting the completion of the VAWT, that part of the project is still in the future.


"Have you considered something like 3 x 60 degree out piston pumps?"

No, exactly the opposite. I am currently thinking a 5:1 gear reduction to a single 3in bore x 10in stroke pump. This particular configuration should allow the turbine to cut-in somewhere ~ 10MPH. At 10MPH and a loaded TSR of 0.8 and a CP of 0.2, I should have ~33W available and the load from the pump should be ~ 23.3W. This represents the power required to move 11.86 liters of water 12 vertical meters. This assumes the CP of 0.2 includes the friction losses of the gear box, the pump and the water friction through the pipe. Honestly the CP of 0.2 is probably a bit optimistic, but I have to start somewhere. The VAWT should be turning @ 46RPM, and the pump should be operating @ ~9CPM (1 cycle every 6.5 seconds). The wings will travel 188.5in per revolution * 5 Revolutions per cycle = 942in/cycle. The pump piston should travel 2 * 10in per cycle yielding a 47:1 wing travel to piston travel ratio. The nature of piston type pumps makes long slow strokes more efficient (not to mention MUCH quieter).

As wind speed increases actual system loading will occur from the well itself, not from moving the water. A 1/2 HP well pump pulls about 3.25 gpm from the well, a 2HP high performance pump pulls about 4 gallons per minute from the same well. I currently have a 3/4HP pump on the well and it pulls about 3.5 gallons per minute. In 50MPH winds and a TSR of .8, the VAWT should only turn @ 228RPM, and the pump should operate @ 45.6CPM (1.3 Seconds per cycle); however, I don't think the well will allow 14gpm to be drawn from it, and so I would anticipate the load to increase, slowing the actual RPM and decreasing the TSR and plunging the CP. I would be tickled to death to get 0.25gpm @ 10MPH wind speed, .5GPM @ 15MPH and 1GPM @ 20MPH. Ultimately if the VAWT exceeds daily usage all I achieve is a well watered lawn, LOL . If the load is too much for the VAWT my first recourse will be to increase the gear ratio. The 700 series Boston Gear speed reducer I plan on using is available from 5:1 to over 100:1 on Flea-Bay for ~$50 a throw. I figured I would start with 5:1 and do some data logging. If all the stars line up and the system exceeds my expectations I will add a control system to shut-off the cistern fill when it is full and have the pump load the high-pressure side, when the high-pressure side reaches a "trip-point" I will let it dump through the sprinkler system; all of this is easy, but I do not anticipate needing to design or build that part. I just expect to pump some portion of my water from the ground to the cistern.

Fish
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Fish4Fun

Junior

Posts: 273

Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:27 pm

Location: NC USA

Post Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:20 am

Re: Just a Progress Report

Had a bit of spare time a few weeks back and got two of my three wings built.
http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad20/Fish_4_Fun/2M%20VAWT%20Construction/DSCN1528.jpg
http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad20/Fish_4_Fun/2M%20VAWT%20Construction/DSCN1524.jpg
http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad20/Fish_4_Fun/2M%20VAWT%20Construction/DSCN1518.jpg
http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad20/Fish_4_Fun/2M%20VAWT%20Construction/DSCN1515.jpg

I will take some pictures of the "water shed" where they will eventually be mounted later. The "ruler" is 72in long, the blades are a touch over 2m.

Fish

Hrmm, that didn;t work out well at all :-(

I guess I need a PM on how to make image links work.
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