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The Gotwind Forum • View topic - Blocking Diode

Blocking Diode

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chris_psmith

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Posts: 115

Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:27 pm

Post Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:20 am

Blocking Diode

Apologies for yet another daft sparky question. Spent the day doing a complete re-wire of my turbine control board now my grid tie has arrived.
In the re-wire I included my blocking diode as i had been using batteries before.
Question - as i am just using the grid tie should i take it out. From some of what I have read the grid tie seems to have an ability to avoid over charge by feeding back to the genny, i assume it won't be able to do this with a grid tie. The grid tie is listed as having over current protection.

Time sto get the snips out?

Chris
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shawn

User avatar

Senior

Posts: 668

Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:27 pm

Location: East Yorkshire UK

Post Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:47 am

Re: Blocking Diode

Chris did you get a 14v-20v one?
If you did I wouldn't hook that straight up to your turbine as the volts will kill it.
Find out what the inverters cut-in VOLTS are and clamp the voltage down with a battery or batteries.
Its the only way to do it unless you have an inverter that goes to 130v like the expensive ones.
Hook the inverter to a 12v leisure battery and see if it puts power into the grid.If it doesn't then hook your turbine up to the battery and see if it cuts in at around 13-14volts as that would be ideal. You'll always have reserve power and your inverter will just dump to the grid and use the battery as a buffer.I'm doing that now but my cut-in voltage is 32volts :(
So I'm using 2x12v and one 6v battery to get my 32v. ;)
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Fish4Fun

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Posts: 273

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Location: NC USA

Post Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:02 pm

Re: Blocking Diode

chris,

If by "blocking diode" you mean a diode after your rectifier prior to your battery/inverter, then no, you should not need this. If by "blocking diode" you mean you have a DC motor configured as a DC generator, then I would absolutely use a "blocking diode", I would also add either a filter capacitor or, as suggested above, perhaps a battery, to clamp the voltage spikes coming from the DC generator. I personally would use a capacitor rather than a battery. The inverter will suck your battery to zero during periods of no wind while a capacitor will merely filter the DC output. Selection of the capacitor voltage and value should be done with care. I would suggest at least a 25% safety margin on the voltage (ie if the "peak voltage" you see is 75V, select AT LEAST a 100V capacitor). The value of the capacitor needs to be selected based on the "ripple" current, which in your case is likely to be rather high. The capacitor should be connected across the leads (in parallel, not series).

You might look at a capacitor like this:

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSea ... =P10659-ND

,though with no knowledge of your system, this is just a stab in the dark.

You might also consider a capacitor like this:

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSea ... 99-3507-ND

connected directly across the motor/generator terminals. This should help limit the voltage spikes associate with the slip rings. Again, selection of optimum value would require intimate knowledge of your system.

Factors that should ultimately determine capacitor selection include 1) Average DC Output Voltage 2) Peak Spike Voltages (dv/dt) 3) Average Current 4) Peak current spikes (di/dt) 5) Spike Frequency (Poles * RPM)

Experimentation with the capacitor across the motor terminals will likely be the best method of determining its size. I would suggest using a 500V to 1kV ceramic capacitor for this purpose. The value I would simply test in "order of magnitude" steps. You might start with 10pF, .001uF and 1uF values. Install the 10pF and compare system performance to no capacitor at all. If system performance improves, add the .001uF capacitor (no reason to remove the 10pF). If system performance again improves, add the 1uF capacitor (again no reason to remove the others).

The filter capacitor after the blocking diode can be as large as you can afford, 4700uF 200V is a good starting place. The general formula is:
Q = CV
where
Q = the charge in coulombs
C = Capacitance in Farads
V = Voltage in Volts

If you will remember that an Amp is 1 coulomb/second and you have an average of 10 amps @ 30V and you have a 5 pole motor turning at 600RPM, here's what you should see:

5 pole motor @ 600RPM = 3000 Pulses/Min = 50hz => 1 pulse every 20mS.
10 Amps suggests 14.1A peaks
30V suggests 42V peaks
10 Amps = 10 Coulombs/Second * 20mS = .2 Coulombs/Pulse

So.....
.2C = 4700uF * V => 42V/Pulse as the charge on our 4700uF capacitor.

With no load other than our capacitor the voltage would quickly ramp up to no load voltage which could be quite high, hence the suggestion of a 200V capacitor. If you wanted to include over-voltage protection you could reduce the Voltage rating of the capacitor and increase the capacity (it turns out the size/cost of capacitors are a function of the voltage rating and the value) to say 22,000uF @ 100V......

.2C = 22,000uF * V => 9V/Pulse as the charge on our capacitor. This would ramp up to working voltage in ~ 3 pulses (~60mS).

Assuming your inverter is either 50hz or 60hz output, it is fairly easy to see that the larger value capacitor would produce significantly less ripple voltage than the smaller one; however, it must be ASS-U-MEd that the inverter has a fairly large capacitive input filter built-in. Your purpose is to filter the DC output so that it does not damage the inverter input. Is larger safer/better? Yes, to a point. There is a certain amount of energy lost in the storage process, among other pitfalls of over-filtering, but for this application, to keep things fairly simple, you can pretty much assume that bigger is better. You just need to be aware that as the RPM decreases, Voltage AND Current drops. You would want to ensure that it doesn't take more than a couple hundred mS to reach cut-in voltage across your filter capacitor at low wind speeds. (Re-Do the above math at 200RPM/20V/4Amps, and you will see what I mean).

Fish
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chris_psmith

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Posts: 115

Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:27 pm

Post Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:49 pm

Re: Blocking Diode

Thanks both, continued my day of Laurel and Hardy do electrics. Before reading Shauns reply I stood in the garage to watch the fun, voltage fluctuating between 20 and 35V, gust of wind and 50V kazaam, bang, spark fizzzz, oooh not meant to do that.
With sinking fealing I brought my newley purchased inverter in to open it up and see what i had damaged.....good old chinese sparky work, had a 20A blade fuse fitted that was a black colour...
Fitted a new fuse, connected my 2x12v batteries back up, line from batteries to the inverter, kazamm, bank, spark, smoke, hmmm, should have stopped the turbine first.
Changed the fuse again, stopped the turbine, connected it all up, and......all working, no idea if i have done any lasting damage, but running at 30V and inverter flashing away, all looking good, good old chinease bloke with a soldering iron!
So, I can only say so far, my inverter seems quite robust!

Shaun, in answer to your question, it is a 20 to 55V inverter so just right for a 24V turbine.

Fish4fun, I meant the diode prior to the inverter to stop flow back to the turbine, I now need it again as the batteries are back. Not sure how i would select the capacitor for the job from your description, the voltage from my turbine can obviously go over 55V but need to keep it below that for the inverter, so will a capacitor do the job in this case where total output voltage can be over the max needed? I will read through your note and check the links to see if i can work it out.

All in all, a day of re-confirming how hard this wind turbine is for someone who has little or no idea what they are doing :oops:

Chris
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shawn

User avatar

Senior

Posts: 668

Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:27 pm

Location: East Yorkshire UK

Post Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:08 pm

Re: Blocking Diode

So is your inverters cut-in 20v? because if it is when the wind stops it will drag the voltage down to 20v which is only 10v each battery and they wont like that it could knacker them really fast.

I've knackered 8 in 18mths by dragging them down to 10.5v with inverters and UPS's. :(

If your cut-in is 20v then maybe you should be looking at a 12v+6v=18 but will go to 20v easily and not get too drained.
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ghurd

Senior

Posts: 674

Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:27 pm

Location: USA

Post Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:16 am

Re: Blocking Diode

"Question - as i am just using the grid tie should i take it out. From some of what I have read the grid tie seems to have an ability to avoid over charge by feeding back to the genny, i assume it won't be able to do this with a grid tie."
Uh, What?

"The grid tie is listed as having over current protection". Is that listed with UL, CE or other?

"it is a 20 to 55V inverter so just right for a 24V turbine".
The owners manual should describe the proper connections to avoid blowing fuses.
Fuse only blow if there is a problem.
G-

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